Tulpa.info - metaphysics

JGC 12/20/2021 10:04 PM

That's a shitty test on the second one there.

10:06 PM

Like objectively terrible. It depends on nothing to do with the tulpa at all and everything to do with the perspective of the person you're asking

Yeah... why would you decide if a tulpa is a moral agent based on an external reaction

a heuristic

Newsflash: I blame all hosts for the actions of their tulpas irrespective of their level of extancy. Because that's not only your parent but your proverbial soul-partner who continues to have an active hand in shaping you regardless of whether they want to or not.

10:08 PM

If you make a tulpa who is a shit, it's observably your fault

because tulpas aren't people with free will...?

You do realize that not all religions or secular traditions acknowledge free will right? I'll avoid touching on the Buddhism angle which actively says "no free will" and instead go the psychology angle. We have two circuits, one which manages pavlovian input-output, and another which can step in to control output. What does it do to control this output you may ask? It manages expectations - This is the heart of free will - Expectation.

It's internally that you can tell whether a headmate is making a choice or not

JGC

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this has the fun double whammy of a complex question and a false dichotomy. it is entirely possible not to get mad at all, and even if you do get mad, it's possible to get mad at someone other than the tulpa or the host

Expectation is built up over time from agents outside of your control, so whilst it can be said to exist on some level, realistically no, it's outside not only the tulpas control but yours.

10:12 PM

It is simply altered slowly piecemeal over time

10:12 PM

But given that this circuit is a lifelong reflex, your host has more control over it innately than a tulpa, given that they have put the foundational work into its formation.

You can't tell from the outside. Some people will look at what a tulpa account posted online and just assume the poster had their own agency, others will assume otherwise

And it is their job to ensure it continues to operate logically

10:13 PM

Until a tulpa is capable of not being a shit in public

10:13 PM

Presuming that's ever a thing you've had an issue with. I did my full moral training course in fiction lol.

gee

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjxhaTms_P0AhXDQUEAHVnDBBIQFnoECA8QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSamskara_(Indian_philosophy)&usg=AOvVaw03_xpHI5typ8bR7GABToNL

10:16 PM

samskara right?

Yes. I would strongly suspect that Samskara from past lives is a suggested trait, but the point is moot. Religion is still a trait outside of your control initially.

10:20 PM

Psychologically though, this is essentially how the brain does work. It repeats the pattern of thought until it is ingrained, slowly shifting over time and slowly losing flexibility as a stable form is found, but never completely losing plasticity.

10:21 PM

It does serve as a neat counterpoint to christian free will though. It points out that the "secular" presumption of free will is still ultimately christian-centric

What does free even mean?

10:22 PM

I suspect they think that feeling as if you are doing something is actually you doing something. (edited)

10:22 PM

Whilst it is just a feeling.

Concepts like free will, and determinism reduce people to whatever compartment, for whatever end. Based all in terms of language trying to push restraints of category on fundamentally ill-defined things.

10:46 PM

Tulpa are dissociated abstractions of the person who creates them. Saying if they have a soul, or not means as much as it means nothing.

10:47 PM

Because in either case a soul is at it's core unnecessary.

10:50 PM

Btw any dualistic speech is used pragmatically

Personally I agree there isn't such a thing as a soul. Personality is a fluid and ephemeral thing. Just because we want it to have a container so that we get to preserve it after brain death doesn't mean that it does. We've looked for that container for a very long time, and the brain and body doesn't have one. I was merely engaging the argument on its own merit. I don't think their reasoning holds out even under the pretense of a soul. (edited)

Of course.

I might add the concept of freewill in the Catholic/Orthodox philosophy is different from what many call free will

tulpas have their own souls, part of Tulpa forcing is calling upon the tulpa soul and asking it to occupy the new soul seat you created in your brain. still you need to manage your tulpa like you would a child. if your tulpa happens to say something using your pc then you are responsible (edited)

part of Tulpa forcing is calling upon the tulpa soul and asking it to occupy the new soul seat you created in your brain

Citation needed.

how do i cite myself meditating for 7 years

Why do you think your personal practice over 7 years has any correlation to what the majority of people do in tulpamancy? To be blunt I've not even seen many magical practices claim tulpas are beings with souls, usually they are nebulous spirits not even remotely equivalent to a human.

4:06 AM

Besides that though what proof do you have besides your personal feelings that a soul was involved in your autosuggestion-ritual? I use chakra visualizations regularly to achieve various effects, that doesn't mean chakras exist.

why should i accept the majoritys practice

You didn't say "my practice is...", you said "The practice of tulpamancy includes summoning a soul"

i simply think that for there to be an autonomous creature it needs to have a soul

When most people neither experience it that way nor believe that. Which means it's not true.

if you have a proper tulpa it will have a soul

Zen

When most people neither experience it that way nor believe that. Which means it's not true.

majority consensus cant be equated with truth

Zen

why should i accept the majoritys practice

You didn't say "my practice is...", you said "The practice of tulpamancy includes summoning a soul"

this is how i speak, thats what i meant, english is my third language

Personally I don't think that. Souls don't exist in my practice, and even several magical practices including eastern ones reject them. Buddhism for instance rejects the existence of the soul as an illusion. Everything you call a soul is just personality, and personalities can be changed on every level or discarded entirely

buddhism does but hinduism doesnt

4:10 AM

i consider buddhism to be a degraded hinduism

4:11 AM

and soul isnt equal to personality. your soul stays constant while your personality can change (edited)

Define this thing that stays constant

its a piece of gods soul that you get to guide the material body which is your body

4:12 AM

when you die it either rejoins god soul or it gets sent to a different body

4:12 AM

its needed for freewill

4:12 AM

like a human can decide between two situations equally

The first two things you said there are complete speculation

unlike a rock which can only fall down

But free will I can work with.

4:16 AM

Free will actually exists visibly in the brain. A simple way of viewing it is that we have two circuits: We have circuitry that causes Pavlovian responses, I feel good so I do the good things. I feel bad so I run away. This circuit is very simple, very animal, it lacks free will and higher thought. We have another circuit that allows us to self-evaluate, to understand ourselves and to instead of going "This situation is bad. Run." go "What is the reason this situation is bad. Is it me? Is it chance?" Several more base forms of life lack this capacity entirely but most mammals do have it. This is the real root of free will. The ability to choose our own responses despite the circumstances. This circuit can say "no" to the baser Pavlovian circuit.

4:16 AM

In short, a soul is visibly not needed for it.

id say the soul there would be the judger of whether a situation is bad or not

4:18 AM

it cant be seen as just one electrical impulse

Oh that's actually an even older more simple part of the brain. That's just math.

its like how you have one individual conscious yet that cant be associated with anywhere in your brain

4:19 AM

its a metaphysical structure on ur brain

There is a dedicated area of the brain for judgement calls like that

4:19 AM

that's not true (edited)

when i experience life i experience it as a singular thing

4:20 AM

its not located anywhere in my brain

4:20 AM

its all the sounds and visuals and thoughts coming together to form experience

Yes, but that doesn't hold true for reasoning individual types of thought.

it doesnt have to

4:21 AM

I understand human bodies are partly machines that get signals and transform them into other types of signals

It does. There is a specific circuit that handles dopamine responses in your brain, this is reward. There are specific lines that handle pleasure. Specific areas that decide what is good and what is bad.

but i think that the end product is sent or processed thru the soul to form the human experience

4:22 AM

simple things such as dopamine cant be used to explain more complex human depressions

Free will is literally just two circuits fighting one another for dominance over what the body does. Usually the one that is most successful.

4:24 AM

simple things such as dopamine cant be used to explain more complex human depressions

I wasn't talking about depression, but I'm also familiar with how that works. In fact, it's theorized to be the "free will" part of the brain going heywire and being overly powerful over what is real and base. Depression is overly "higher" thought that involves going "I am the thing that is bad" - even when the more animal part of the brain is saying that everything is fine.

or it can be caused by a bunch of other things too....

You don't have any basis for that though, do you?

4:25 AM

Other than feeling

if there are two similar people and one of their mothers dies, that person will feel depressed not because of dopamine but because someone close to them died

4:26 AM

yhey dont have any difference in dopamine with the other person

Grieving is not what depression is. Sadness is actually not related to dopamine also.

well i think that brain psychology is too complex to state things like that at all

4:27 AM

for some it may be tied to it for others it may not

4:28 AM

and tying human emotions to things such as dopamine is a very negative and materialistic way of life

No, all psychology relates to the brain, you've just presumed that a soul exists and want to justify it for your own reasoning. You don't have any reason to believe in a soul other than it's what you want to believe.

4:29 AM

You're also saying a lot of things that just are known to be false

4:29 AM

Because you don't understand neurology or psychology at all

i studied psychology a bit but i lost all faith in it after being in the psychiatric system

4:30 AM

i was passed between 6-7 different psychologists and psychiatrists and they were all very useless in helping me feel better

4:30 AM

actually only made things worse

4:30 AM

but turning to tulpas made me happier

4:30 AM

and id rather believe tulpas are as wholly human as me than not

and tying human emotions to things such as dopamine is a very negative and materialistic way of life

I fail to even see what this has to do with a way of life. Understanding how the brain works in individual ways doesn't help if you don't understand the ramifications or draw the wrong conclusions.

4:32 AM

and id rather believe tulpas are as wholly human as me than not

I actually agree that they are. But I think identity is fake in the brain, it's not "invisible" because it's outside of the brain, it's invisible because it's not real. It's something we tell ourselves is real.

Zen

and tying human emotions to things such as dopamine is a very negative and materialistic way of life

I fail to even see what this has to do with a way of life. Understanding how the brain works in individual ways doesn't help if you don't understand the ramifications or draw the wrong conclusions.

ive known people irl who tied all their life issues to saying they didnt have enough seretonion or dopamine, then just laze around all day

So both hosts and tulpas are fake to me, but amusing.

okay but how can you be fake